TRANSCRIPT

Musical interlude 

Lisa Campbell: Hello listeners. Welcome to Seas the Day, a podcast from the Duke University Marine Lab. I’m your host, Lisa Campbell, and before we get started with today’s episode I wanted to share some information about our planned schedule for Seas the Day. As we’ve learned what it takes to publish each episode and settled into a kind of a routine, I am now confident to announce that we will release two episodes of Seas the Day each month. Yes, two, on the first and third Wednesday. That’s right. We’ll bring you new content twice a month. Plan your podcast listening accordingly.

Lisa Campbell: This week we have another episode from our Conservation and Development series. To remind you, this series features podcasts produced by students as a term project for a course and students only have three and a half weeks to complete the project. I initiated this podcast assignment in January of 2019 and today’s story is from this original podcast experiment. Why are we just publishing these podcasts now? Well, I have to confess that although I always intended to make the podcast publicly available, I didn’t have a plan on how that would happen or really a clue about how to do it. Seas the Day as an umbrella podcast didn’t exist. So, one thing you’ll note is that in these original 2019 episodes students made up their own podcast names. Rather than edit these out or replace him with what we’re now calling the Conservation and Development series, we’ve kept the originals.

Lisa Campbell: Some of them are quite clever, including todays. In this episode, ‘Wicked Warriors’ Ali Boden and Cass Neiman take on marine plastic pollution, a problem they both care about. Ali and Cass tackle the topic broadly. You’ll hear about where plastic pollution comes from, the various impacts it has – including on marine life – and some of the efforts to fix the problem. Throughout the podcast, Cass and Ali raise important questions about responsibility for both the problem of plastic pollution and any would be solutions. Enjoy!

Ali Boden: Hello there, welcome to Wicked Warriors where we take on wicked problems frequently talked about in the media, but are more complex than we think. I’m Ali. 

Cass Nieman: And I’m Cass. And today we’re going to talk about the problem of plastic polluting our oceans. 

Ali: Now, I’m sure you’ve seen it in all forms of social media. The video of a straw stuck in sea turtle’s nose or the articles referencing to the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. I don’t know about you, but I feel like I see this way more than I did just a few years ago. So, Cass, why has plastic pollution gotten so much traction and funding, yet the problem still persists? 

Cass: Well, there are a lot of elements that go into this question. It is become more widespread in the media recently as more evidence emerges of plastic in our oceans, and as you mentioned, disturbing videos of marine life entangled in plastic. Because it has garnered so much attention recently, efforts are being made to tackle this problem. A lot of money has gone into funding big technological projects to try to clear the oceans of massive amounts of plastic, particularly targeted towards the well-known Pacific Garbage Patch which is halfway between Hawaii and California. The problem is, no one knows exactly how to do this, and plus, it continues to enter the ocean despite highly publicized plastic straw and , bag bans. So what is the solution? 

Ali: Well, today, I think we have a good line up to start tackling this wicked problem. We’ll discuss how widespread the issue of plastic pollution is, where it’s originating from, and how it’s being perceived in the U.S. Hopefully some insight provided by one of our dear friends who works in the plastic recycling industry can shed some light on this topic as well. Shall we get started? 

Cass: Let’s dive right in. 

Musical Interlude 

Ali: Now first, maybe we should clarify the difference between marine debris and plastic pollution, as I think we hear those synonymously used in the media. 

Cass: Great point. Well, according to U.N. news, marine debris is essentially any persistent, manufactured, or processed solid material that’s discarded, disposed of, or abandoned in the marine and coastal environment. 

Ali: So marine debris isn’t just plastic; it’s things like fishing gear, metals, or building materials? 

Cass: That’s right. But actually three-quarters of all marine debris is just plastic, and this is troubling as it continually breaks up into smaller and smaller pieces, but never actually goes away. If they’re not already entangled by the larger plastic pieces, marine life can mistake the smaller pieces for food, thus allowing it to travel up the food chain, including humans. According to a National Geographic article by Elizabeth Royte, scientists have found microplastics in 114 aquatic species, and more than half of those end up on our dinner plates. 

Ali: Wow! And to think, according to the U.N. news, plastic production has drastically increased in the last 60 years. It’s estimated that of the 275 million metric tons of plastic waste produced in 2010 along the world’s coastal countries, between 4.8 and 12.7 million metric tons are believed to have entered our oceans. 

Cass: That is deeply concerning. Do we know which countries are contributing the most to that? 

Ali: There have been some recent studies to identify common sources. Dr. Jenna Jambeck, from the University of Georgia, published an article in the journal Science in 2015 showing that the majority of plastic waste production originates from Asian countries with China as a leading contributor, followed by Thailand and Vietnam. 

Cass: Those seem to be countries often referred to as developing countries. 

Ali: Good point. Comparatively, developed countries like the U.S., Canada, or the U.K. were ranked lower in plastic contributing to the marine debris. 

Cass: Interesting. You would think that with the amount of people living in the U.S. and relying on plastic for its convenience, that our numbers would be higher. 

Ali: My thoughts exactly. But maybe it’s best we table this for later in the episode, as there’s still a lot to discuss about why plastic pollution is a major problem. So I know you briefly mentioned this earlier in our intro, but this has to have an impact on marine life. What are the numbers you’ve seen so far? 

Cass: According to a U.N. report, 817 species are at risk of plastic pollution ingestion or entanglement, which has increased from 663 in 2012. 

Ali: And I know with how much publicity this problem has gotten, that there have been some technological solutions out there trying to combat plastic pollution. Are there any big ones that you found most interesting? 

Cass: Well, The Ocean Clean-up project is a Dutch nonprofit that was highlighted on 60 Minutes about a month ago. It’s a 600-meter-long, U-shaped floating barrier with a 3-meter skirt attached below that’s being pulled by a boat and took off from San Francisco and headed towards the Pacific Garbage Patch this past September. The system was meant to passively collect plastic debris in front of it, funneling it to the center. Unfortunately, it returned to the port at the end of December after experiencing a malfunctioning cleanup system that wasn’t retaining the plastic. 

Ali: Well, that’s a shame it didn’t work, but I must say it’s a pretty lofty goal if you think about how much is out there to collect. On a more local level, I know I’ve heard about Mr. Trash Wheel out in Baltimore. It’s this contraption that has a huge social media following with 18,000 followers. It collects trash that would otherwise enter the harbor. Apparently since it first started in May of 2014, Mr. Trash Wheel has collected just about 1000 tons of trash. So not just plastic, but still a viable solution. 

Cass: Not only are there technological solutions to this plastic problem, I’ve also noticed a shift towards banning or minimizing plastic use from the consumer end. For instance, restaurants are banning straws in city-wide and sometimes state-wide bans. Seattle became the first major U.S. city to ban plastic straws and utensils in July 2018; ten years after they had passed an ordinance to make all single-use, food-service items recyclable or compostable. Even more recently, California introduced a straw ban that just went into effect on January 1^st, and D.C. is making efforts to be straw free by July. Even Starbucks aims to eliminate plastic straws globally by 2020. 

Ali: Great point! Besides plastic straws, there’s also been a lot of political action towards plastic grocery bags. I’ve seen attempts at completely banning the use of plastic bags in certain towns; but more notably, I think we can all agree, we’ve seen an influx of plastic bag taxes where you have to pay a little bit of extra money for each bag you use when shopping. California and Washington D.C. are working towards minimizing their plastic bags through this manner. And even abroad, England introduced a bag tax back in 2014, and according to BBC, plastic bag use dropped by 86% in just two years of its implementation, thus removing 13 billion bags from circulation. From a private sector standpoint though, some major grocery stores are taking the initiative to remove their plastic bags, too. For instance, we found that Kroger, which is the largest U.S. supermarket chain and the third largest in the world, stated that they will be phasing out, towards complete removal, of all plastic bags in their stores by 2025. 

Cass: These all seem like great efforts to reduce plastics that could later pollute our oceans. But if you think about it, it’s rather reactive, don’t you think? 

Ali: Yeah, I agree. Despite all the awareness in efforts to reduce plastic, they haven’t really led to a decrease in production worldwide. We’re still seeing plastic continuously entering our oceans, so I can’t help but think if these reactive measures are really only a band aid for a multi-faceted problem we have here. Do you think there’s another source to this problem we should be considering? 

Cass: Glad you asked. I think there’s a big part of this problem we’ve been overlooking. Maybe we should discuss the pathway this plastic follows before it threatens our oceans after the consumer disposes of it. 

Ali: Well, after disposal a key issue is processing the plastic. This leads us to developing nations which are increasing population sizes and therefore increasing in plastic consumption, which cannot be sustained without proper waste disposal infrastructure. Traditional methods for waste disposal in these developing nations involves on-land disposal through either open spaces or landfills. Developing nations lack the capacity to handle the increase in waste production altogether, plastic or not, and cannot afford to have more than one waste stream. In addition, according to a 2018 article by Chandni Joshi, it isn’t possible to have a centralized recycling system like we would see here in the U.S. due to associated transportation and operational costs. 

Cass: Those are some very good points. I’ve heard about some developing countries offering an economic incentive to pick up plastic and other trash. A 2015 article by Ebo Quartey and others in the International Journal of Environmental Research in Public Health details an example in Ghana. There they have various informal plastic recoveries/recycling businesses that offer citizens money in exchange for picking. Additionally, there have been different forms of legislative and governmental actions to try to reduce the plastic on land. However, our large-scale effective recycling infrastructure remains nonexistent, and these methods can only go so far. 

Ali: That is a really cool incentive, and it’s good that these initiatives are in place. Unfortunately, although this informal picking removes plastic from the streets and towns, the end location is still a landfill. Thus, instead of being recycled, plastics can still contribute to plastic pollution as they can easily be swept up and enter our waterways just from a simple rainstorm or windy day. According to the World Economic Forum, eight of the ten most plastic-polluted rivers that contribute to 90% of river-source pollution going to the ocean are rivers in Asia. As noted in the article, these rivers have two things in common: one, a generally high population living in the surrounding region, sometimes in the hundreds of millions, and two, a less than ideal waste management process. 

Cass: So if you think about it, these developing nations are stuck in this inability to advance their waste streams, which can pose great threats to this plastic pollution problem and even public health. 

Ali: Exactly, and in thinking about Asia, don’t we send most of our recycling from the U.S. to China? 

Cass: Yes. Up until recently the U.S. had been sending most of its plastics to China. However, in 2017 China introduced an import ban on 24 different types of plastic. They couldn’t handle the mass amount of plastic coming into their country with the expectation of recycling it. According to an article by Steve Toloken in in the journal Plastic News, the import ban has resulted in other developing countries in Southeast Asia, such as Thailand, Malaysia, and Vietnam, taking over the burden of plastic imports. 

Ali: Wow! You know, that reminds me, I read an article in the Guardian that said U.S. imports to Thailand increased by 2000%, Malaysia by 273%, and Vietnam by 46% in just 2018. They make mention that this hike could lead to these countries also banning imports in the future; it’s just too much for them. Dr. Jenna Jambeck, who’s study we mentioned before, even added in an NPR article that this ban would lead to the displacement of 111 million metric tons of plastic waste by 2030. But I can’t help but think who else is doing this. Is it just the U.S.? 

Cass: Actually, it’s a number of developed countries. According to Raconteur, in addition to the U.S., most of these imports to China are coming from neighboring Hong Kong as well as Japan, but also Germany, the U.K., and other European nations. 

Ali: Okay, so the U.S. isn’t alone, but how is this allowable from a legal standpoint in the U.S.? Is there anything that explicitly bans or allows plastic to be exported to other countries? 

Cass: While referencing back to that Guardian article from earlier, the US has regulations in place to ensure plastic waste is processed in an environmentally friendly way. But waste management companies are getting around this by passing it off to countries who don’t. These developing countries don’t have any law similar to China’s recent import ban, and instead have plastic recycling import licenses and permits that allowed them to receive plastic. They don’t have a way to protect themselves from this increase in imports. 

Ali: You know, I think another incentive to export is due to the competition between EPIs or Environmental Performance Indexes. As you just stated, the U.S. has environmental guidelines it strives to follow. Considering the U.S. also strives to be at the top of environmentally conscious countries, and EPIs do not account for the export of waste, passing on the burden of our plastics is the perfect work-around to maintaining an environmentally friendly repertoire without truly minimizing our plastic consumption. So, you know when I made mention earlier of how a study found countries like the U.S, the U.K, and Canada ranked low on contributing to marine debris. It sounds like it’s mostly because of the burden of taking care of plastic is passed on to the countries we see in high rankings. 

Cass: Exactly, it might make more sense for these EPIs to consider waste exports versus imports in the countries they originate from. 

Ali: So why are all these developed countries exporting their plastics to developing countries who can’t process them? 

Cass: Well, I think it comes down to the economics. There’s an incentive to export it because it’s cheaper to send it elsewhere then process it here. In an ideal sense, China had been accepting other countries plastic in order to recycle it and repurpose it for manufactured goods that they could then export. However, the other developing countries that are now receiving what China used to receive don’t have the capacity or infrastructure to meet this influx in volume. 

Ali: Although it is worth mentioning some news we read from late January of this year in an article from The Conversation titled “Plastic in the oceans is not the fault of the Global South.” Apparently, the United Nations Development Programme recently, as in December of this past year, proposed revising the wording of the Basel Convention so that imported plastic waste would no longer be called green waste. This would allow the country to refuse polluted or mixed plastic waste that it is not able to manage safely; however, the amendment has yet to be approved. 

Cass: Very good point. When looking further into this, according to a press release from the BRS Conventions, the U.N. predicts that these revisions could prevent 12 billion metric tons of plastic from entering the oceans by 2050. 

Ali: I imagine allowing these developing nations to reject plastic imports would force developed nations like the U.S. to reevaluate their domestic recycling infrastructure, and perhaps lead more companies to switching to non-plastic packaging. Let’s hope this proposal actually gets approved. 

Cass: Well, for a better understanding of the U.S.’s recycling infrastructure, let’s talk to our expert, Laura Dobroski a project analyst from Resource Recycling Systems to find out. Thanks for joining us Laura. So, what does plastic recycling infrastructure in the U.S. look like right now? 

Laura Dobroski: Plastic recycling infrastructure is most developed for the plastic resins PET and HDPE. PET is your #1 plastic like water and soda bottles, and HDPE is #2 plastics which items like milk jugs and shampoo bottles are made from. These are higher quality types of plastics. The U.S. never developed much capacity to recycle plastics #3-7 because historically, labor costs and environmental safety standards were higher here than in other countries, making processing these plastics into raw material much more expensive here. 

Ali: Thanks for clarifying that. Do you know of any exporting that happens? And if so, why, to what countries, and how much? 

Laura Dobroski: The U.S. and other countries around the world had been sending much of their recyclables to China for decades. Plastics markets emerged there in the 90s as plastic production shifted from the West to Asia, and this shift was driven by local demand and lower costs and less strict regulations. However, in the summer of 2017, China announced it would ban imports of many recyclable materials, including post-consumer plastics. And when that came into effect in 2018, the U.S. began to send more materials to other countries in Southeast Asia. So, in the first half of the last year, the top countries where the U.S. sent its plastics were Malaysia where it sent about 340 million pounds plastics there; Thailand, we sent over 200 million pounds; and Vietnam, we sent about 150 million pounds of plastics. And there are other countries and not all in Southeast Asia, but those countries are the major ones. They accounted for almost half of our plastics exports. But now that these Southeast Asian countries are seeing a glut of plastic imports from the U.S. and other countries, they started to announce their own bans and restrictions. Last fall, Malaysia announced it plans to ban plastic imports in three years, and in the meantime, they’ve implemented new strict requirements for plastics imports. So, while the U.S. was sending about 50 to 60 million pounds of plastics there per month, last August that number dropped to 9.5 million pounds. Vietnam stopped accepting plastic last summer, because it had too much and needed to figure out how to handle the influx. So, we also saw a sharp decline in exports there. The U.S. went from exporting about 25 to 30 million pounds of plastic per month to under a million pounds per month in August and September, and the same goes for Thailand. Last summer they halted plastic imports because they had too much of it, and the material wasn’t going anywhere. And they discussed making the ban permanent within two years. So, while the U.S. had been sending something like 35 million pounds of plastic per month, in the first half of last year, starting in July, we were sending closer to only 1 to 2 million pounds per month to Thailand. So, the short answer to your question is the U.S. definitely exports plastics primarily to Southeast Asia, though the specifics of where and how much have been rapidly changing over the past year and a half and will continue to do so. 

Cass: Well, thank you so much for enlightening us today, Laura. That really helps paint a picture of how the U.S. recycling system works today. 

Ali: Now I don’t know about you Cass, but it seems this plastic pollution problem just gets harder and harder to solve. This export-import deal is fueling the fire that already exists. Now that we’ve unpacked a good portion of this plastic pollution dilemma and where it stems from, maybe we should discuss the narratives we see regarding plastic pollution today that feed into this discourse. Point out why the finger continues to get pointed at developing nations. 

Cass: Great idea! Well, I know, according to The Japan Times, our own President Trump has been quoted to say “Every year over 8 million tons of garbage is dumped into our beautiful oceans by many countries of the world. That includes China. That includes Japan. That includes many, many countries.” Whether or not you’re a Trump supporter, we have to agree he’s in a position of power that influences opinion. Saying that countries like China and Japan are to blame for plastic pollution is the perfect example of “it’s not us, it’s you” kind of mentality. 

Ali: It seems there’s a strong disconnect between how the plastic pollution problem is being posed in the media and the true gut of the problem. Yes, our advancements towards reducing plastic consumption and collecting plastics already entering our waterways are great solutions, but they do not address the plastic burden problem or the need for better infrastructure within developing nations in the first place. 

Cass: You’re right. This burden passing is a long path. Plastics are produced so cheaply, and the disposal burden is passed on to the consumer. Upon disposal, the plastic is passed into the hands of waste management companies who export to countries already facing a developing infrastructure burden that cannot handle even their own plastic. And due to this, they feed into the burden of contributing to plastic pollution in the ocean. 

Ali: In many ways, we aren’t solving the plastic pollution problem in the correct way with a full understanding of the picture. We’re looking at this issue from only a couple points along the burden path and missing the crucial middle. 

Cass: So, what can we do as consumers? If I’m listening in today, and I consider myself pretty plastic conscious. You know, I use a bamboo toothbrush, a stainless-steel straw, and I bring my Yeti everywhere. What more can I do to help? 

Ali: Great question, Cass. I wish we could say it’s an easy answer, but I think that article from The Conversation we referenced earlier provided a rather conflicting narrative. They point out how many consumer-focused plastic solutions perpetuate inequality, like how not everyone can afford a bamboo toothbrush, and thus most of these initiatives are only feasible in the Global North. 

Cass: So, while pursuing these initiatives that minimize your plastic footprint as a consumer can help reduce what is exported to developing countries. We can’t expect developing nations to do the same. Instead they require a different solution. 

Ali: Exactly, but I think what we’re seeing today is proof that consumers aren’t just the ones that will solve this problem, whether in a developed or developing country. 

Cass: For instance, aside from the Basel Convention Ban Amendment, perhaps developing nations receiving plastics, can tax nations exporting it to them? This revenue can ideally lead to proper recycling infrastructure, thus reducing public health concerns and further contribution to plastic pollution in our oceans. On the other side, taxing the exporting countries could cause them to reduce the amount of plastic they export or come up with new solutions to their current infrastructure. Producers and consumers could then reevaluate their domestic recycling infrastructure. Though it may be a lofty goal, major actors associated with the different stages of this plastic supply chain should come together, to the same table, rather than looking at the problem from what they can do individually to solve it. Participating in interagency conversations about plastic waste will lead to a better understanding of the true scope of this dilemma and ideally lead to integrated solutions. 

Ali: Great point. I know that Joshi article we mentioned earlier pointed out that there are currently no global effective strategies to keep plastic waste out of the ecosystems that meet the challenges of both developed and developing countries. They also say that plastic is a nonpoint-source pollutant, meaning no one person or country can stop it. 

Cass: Exactly. Connecting stakeholders together will help lead to more efficient management of our plastic waste streams, and ideally minimize contributions to plastic pollution in our oceans. For instance, I know recently I saw that some of the largest consumer-product-goods companies like Procter & Gamble, Unilever, Nestle, PepsiCo, Mars, and Mandalay are partnering together to implement a close loop system in which they provide their food and other household products in reusable packaging that will be picked up at the consumer’s doorstep, cleaned, and reused in their manufacturing lines. Thus, they are considering the producer and consumer relationship while collaborating across companies to make a bigger impact. 

Ali: As a past PepsiCo employee, that makes me really proud to hear. This is a great way to minimize the plastics that would be exported by developed nations like the U.S. Now thinking back to getting everyone back to the same table, let’s make sure the developing nations have a voice in coming to these solutions. 

Cass: Absolutely, while thinking about that closed loop system, that article by Joshi we’ve mentioned throughout this podcast had suggested something similar in respect to developing nations. Referring to it as a decentralized, circular economy, Joshi proposes a way to empower individuals and communities in dealing with the plastic waste stream within their country. In this structure, plastic production and waste is managed at the community level, utilizing a cradle-to-cradle approach. 

Ali: That seems like a great way to add value to plastic rather than discarding it for good. I can see how this approach resembles the solution you just mentioned with Procter & Gamble and Mandalay, but at a local level. You just mentioned two examples of solutions for reducing plastic pollution that have nothing to do with each other in context of where they take place, but have everything to do with each other in the grand scheme of plastic supply chains. Imagine what solutions could be brought forth if these different ends of the spectrum collaborated at the same table. 

Cass: I completely agree. Well, I think we’ve reached our limit for unravelling this wicked problem behind plastic pollution. We have discussed some solutions that have gained traction to address this problem, like bans and technological solutions like The Ocean Cleanup project, but we’ve taken it a step further to consider what lies between the source of plastic consumption and how it ends up in the ocean, which as we’ve pointed out, lies in exports of plastic waste to developing nations. 

Ali: As we’ve mentioned, there are various narratives seen today in the media that point the finger to these developing nations in contributing to marine plastics, but narratives often fail to mention improper waste infrastructures within these countries and the origin of most plastic waste that ends up there. 

Ali: Though we can’t solve this wicked problem in just one podcast, we think an obvious step forward is through considering and bringing together all steps of plastic supply chain with emphasis on including developing nations we see blamed for improper plastic processing. 

Cass: We’d like to thank Laura Dobroski for joining us today and to those of you for listening in. 

Together: I’m Ali and I’m Cass, and we hope to see you next time on Wicked Warriors. 

Music Interlude 

Lisa Campbell: You’ve been listening to Seas the Day. On our next episode Andrea Kolarova, Emma Shanabrook, and Colyer Woolston reflect on what Japan’s 2018 departure from the International Whaling Commission means for the future of whales, whaling, and  for the agreement itself. Please come back and listen.

Lisa: Today’s episode was written and produced by Ali Boden and Cass Neiman. Brad Dubik advised on the episode and Bo Baney and Rafa Lobo edited it.  For more information on our podcast visit our website. Our address is sites.nicholas.duke.edu/seatheday. You’ll find the episodes and other information about what is happening in relation to these issues at Duke. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram @seasthedaypod. Our theme music was written and recorded by Joe Morton. Our artwork is by Stephanie Hillsgrove. Jeff Priddy provides technical support and Jill Powell supports our website. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. Thanks for listening.

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